State of the union 1944. Socialist turning point?

This is from FDR in 1944. He states his famous 'second bill of rights'. He died about a year later, & the country was distracted by war, but it is interesting to think what might have been..

Was this a turning point away from socialism? These same principles were in the french socialist party pre ww2, & were part of the soviet constitution in 1936. Looking at this in hindsight, it seems terribly naive, but we have the history of the attempts at collectivism for the rest of the last century. It is interesting that a great many people, including those in actual power would think these things could be implemented by the govt.

But to be sure, there are many today who still think this is a reasonable list of 'rights'. They think govt can dictate this, & provide it.

Quote:
It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.
For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.


How is it your right to take from me to use for yourself? This is the basic process of providing for the second bill of rights that fdr lists. If there is no appeal to self evident truths, then we are back to 'might makes right'. You have no basis to claim any rights, as it has been throughout history. Only might provides the power to secure your rights.

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,'

You can leave god out of it.. earlier jefferson said, 'to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,' so you can go with 'nature' if you want.. he was not being denominational.

But without this appeal to natural rights of Man, we have nothing but the whims of govt power to determine what they are to protect, & this usually means the exploitation of the weak & minorities.



I see govt as being there to 'secure' my rights. If it fails in that charge, it is our right to alter or abolish it, and to institute NEW govt, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to us shall seem most likely to effect our Safety and Happiness.

This is not the majority deciding to screw the minority, or one powerful group oppressing another. It is a basic statement of human rights.. that ALL are entitled to. Govt is there to secure those rights for all, not just the moneyed elite, or the majority party, or the powerful. THAT is what makes the american experiment unique.. it was not just democracy.. it was democracy with a basis in an ideal.. and the ideal superseded what the majority wanted, if they should decide to exploit others. The american republic is not a majority that decides how to do everything, but a republic of laws that the nation abides by. The majority can tweak those laws, & change with the times, but the basic rights are immutable. The minority or 'outliers' as you call them, are protected from the tyranny of the majority. Govt becomes dictatorial when it no longer abides by the basic rules. When the majority think they can vote themselves special privileges, or take from others & violate their basic rights, the republic is over. It is a free for all, then, & we're back to survival of the fittest.


I'm not addressing any specific examples of govt overreach, but like a frog boiling in water, it is a gradual thing. From the beginning, americans have had a mistrust of govt.. we are not content to hope for a benign ruler, but wish to keep control of our system to keep the power grabbers at bay. Every generation has had to fight off the state centered ideology, with varying degrees of success. It is no different today, & tomorrow's generation will have the same battle. The state longs for supremacy, & the people have to keep them in check. Our 3 prong system is supposed to do that, but lately, they have worked together to ignore the constitution, & overreach in many areas.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, & don't believe the nation is in danger of wild eyed statists grabbing power & overrunning the white house, congress, & the supreme court. But we need to retain that citizen based system of govt, & not let it fall under the control of a ruling elite, or corporate media sponsored elections. We need our representatives to keep the faith.. to remain true to the vision of america, & not try to change it to some socialist utopia.

Is the Progressive Left Anti-American?

What is 'american'?  We know 'who' an american is: anyone born or naturalized as a citizen of america.  But what makes 'america' distinctly 'american'?  It is not the military, the police, firemen, the education system, money, or anything that is common to humans throughout history.  No, what makes america distinctly american is the basic philosophy of a govt of the people, by the people, & for the people.

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed'

This, in a nutshell, is the basis for america.  It is the unique idea in human history that govt should serve the people, & protect their liberties, rather than govt dictating to the people how they will live.  Freedom, independence, self-reliance, & opportunity are the basic ideals of this revolutionary concept of human govt.  Human history has seen it's fill of state centered ideology.  Kings, dictators, chairmen, generals, & ruling bodies have been the norm of human govt.. where the state is supreme, & the people are subservient   In the dream of america, the people are supreme.  The govt's duty is to protect & provide the freedoms of the people.  Anything more begins to infringe upon the liberties of the citizens.

The last few decades have seen an eroding of these american values.  We have seen a growth of a dependent class, with an entitlement mentality, promoting the idea that govt is responsible, not just to ensure our freedoms, but to provide all the necessities of life:  food, shelter, clothing, and medical care.  The govt is seen as a vehicle of social justice.. a tool to create a utopian paradise on earth, forcing redistribution of wealth.  This vision of america from the progressive left, is diametrically opposed to the central tenets of historic american values.  Progressives look longingly at europe, long a bastion of statist systems, & want to change our basic values to state centered, big brother style of governing systems.  They see a cradle to grave dependency as being desirable  & want to use govt to force economic 'fairness', where they tax the 'haves' & give to the 'have nots'.  They want an intrusive nanny state, not individual freedom & responsibility.

This collectivist mentality does not work.  It never has, & never will.  Socialism as a governing system collapses upon itself, as there are not enough producers to support the growing dependent class.  They may succeed in revolutionary rhetoric, stirring up people with propaganda & lies to work against their best interests.  They may succeed in taking control of the power of govt, and levy stiff taxes on the producing classes to promote their concepts of economic justice.  But collectivist philosophies eventually run out of other people's money.  History is littered with the remains of failed collectivist experiments.  Even europe is giving us a modern preview of the harvest of socialism.  Greece, France, and many other nations in europe are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy & economic chaos, & many of the people still demand govt to keep the gravy train running.  But without a strong economic engine, & without a stable currency & freedom to make ventures & takes risks for rewards, the train jumps the tracks.  The statists can only call, 'all aboard!' & tell us to hop on the disabled train.  'We're not going anywhere, but we're making good time!'  They offer illusion & fantasy, and blame the only thing that can actually heal the problems they have created:  Freedom.

It is past time for americans to wake up to the direction we're going.  This is not our father's america.  We are being beguiled with false promises & lures of free stuff.  We're selling our birthright for a mess of pottage.  If we do not take control of our govt, & make it get back to being a govt that serves the people, then we will be just another state run, state centered bureaucracy  micromanaging the citizens & dictating to them how they will live.  If the citizens of america do not stop the drift to state centered ideology, the american experiment is over, & we will be just another statist nation.  We need to oppose & expose the progressive agenda, with it's anti-american goals, & anti-american ideals.  They only promote & offer more govt & state power, & less individual freedom.  The progressive left is the enemy of america.  They do not protect our life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness, but only offer more state domination.  If we continue down their chosen path, the dream of america will be over, & only the nightmare of statism will remain.

Making babies for fun & profit

Are you a third world woman of child bearing age?

Are you uneducated, poor, & have no marketable skills?

Would you like to have plenty of money, have your choice of men, & live like a princess?

Then you should read this, or have someone read it to you.

Don't pass up this once in a lifetime opportunity! You can live the life of your dreams, wear designer clothes, have a nice home, cars, & have men wanting to meet you!

All you need to do is come to America! Here, you'll get all this & more!

What would you pay for this opportunity? $10,000? $5,000? Well, the truth is, it won't cost you a penny. In fact, if you can have babies, you can have all the luxuries you've ever dreamed of, & america will pay YOU! That's right! Get yourself to america somehow.. visit a friend.. cross the border.. have someone take you, & once you have a baby, you're set for life! The more you have, the more you make.

Now you may think, 'I don't know, raising children is a lot of work'. But in america, you don't have to raise them. No! You can drop them off at the government paid baby sitting establishments, which are everywhere. That way you are free to make more babies, or party, or shop, or do the things YOU want to do!

Everything you ever dreamed of.. nice clothes, a home, a cell phone, food, & attentive men are yours if you can get yourself to america. Don't wait any longer! Make your plans, now! Once you're pregnant, go to any hospital. You don't even have to speak english. Just go in, & begin to receive the benefits you deserve. Soon you'll have money coming in, a home of your own, plenty of food to eat, & all you did was get pregnant! It's fun! It's easy! It's the most natural thing in the world, & YOU can do it!




I'm thinking of sending this to the state department, to print up & drop around the world.. why should only the neighboring poor have this opportunity? It's not fair for other 3rd world women to be discriminated against & not allowed to share in this benefit. Perhaps we should even start a transportation service for women in these other places. I'm sure there are young women in africa, china, and even europe that would love the opportunity.

ps.  This is a satirical commentary on american policies of promoting irresponsible childbirth.  I am not serious.

Leftist strategy

This is very interesting.. i just intercepted this message.. it is some kind of strategy paper.. anyway, here is the text:

Comrades. As we battle together against our common enemy, the capitalistic pigs, we must use every resource to win. When you engage the evil dogs, you must not get drawn into their conversations, but look for ways to take control of the discussion & expose them for the evil scum they are. As a reminder, here are a few proven methods the party heads have approved for our use.

1. Look for hot button diversions. Don't discuss things in the manner THEY want, take control of the conversation. If they start setting up logical arguments, don't answer them! Instead, change the subject. Make a comment about their mental health, or suggest they are racists or discredit their intelligence. You will know by their reaction which works the best. If they get enraged about your response, you know you have hit a hot button. Keep working that angle until they leave in frustration.

2. Always use insults. It does not matter how polite they are, or how sensitive you naturally are. You must continue to attack if we are to defeat the evil capitalists & see our Cause gain supremacy. Be rude & insensitive. You cannot over do it. This will cause insecurity in the younger ones, & the older ones will be frustrated from continuing any arguments. If you can, use vulgar language & slurs.

3. Ridicule is always one of the best methods when dealing with enemy resistance. You don't have to know anything about the subject, just make fun of their arguments.. laugh & generalize about how no one thinks that way, or say how any intelligent person knows better.

These 3 strategies are proven effective when dealing with the hated oppressors. Do not let yourself become engaged in a dialog with them. Remember, they are evil deceivers! We need you to be strong & stay with the Party's directives, not be shaken by the confusing reasoning of the capitalist pigs. So rather than try to reason with them, it is more effective if you use one or all of these methods. When the revolution is over, you can take your rightful place as a division head over these counter revolutionaries, & they will recognize your superiority, then. But until then, we need you to show solidarity with the rest of your comrades who are waging this righteous struggle for humanity.

Disclaimer:  This is not real.. i made it up.  duh..

Anti American Protests

Why don't we get a clue? Some countries just don't want america meddling in their affairs. Why don't we leave them in peace.. or however they want it? We can have trade agreements, make treaties, and the usual things sovereign nations do with each other. But we need to stop funding these despotic govts, stop bombing & meddling with their internal affairs, & stop lording it over other nations.

Right now there are choreographed protests going on. They are protesting the us involvement all over the mid east. We can support our allies without having bases in every other country in the mid east.

While we're at it, why not get out of all asian countries, & european ones, & s. american ones, too? We can't even take care of our own house.. the debt is staggering, the country divided, the economy stagnant. Who are we to tell other countries what to do?


I think the movie clip thing is pretty lame. The state dept has no business commenting on some stunt a private citizen does, nor apologizing for our first amendment.  Plenty of stupid, inflammatory things are said every day about any religion or group on the internet. We should not have to apologize for their intolerance. We have freedom of expression in our world. They will have to accept that, or weary themselves trying to kill us all.

I haven't seen the clip, nor do i care to. There are plenty of bigoted, bad taste videos, pics, & jokes around, & i don't buy this instigated the concerted attack 6 mos later, coincidentally on 9/11.

What if we just got out of the way of all the muslim haters? Pull our state dept personnel, close down the military bases, end the foreign aid, & just treated them like any other country. If they want to trade with us, fine, we can come to an agreement. But we are not their protector, or nanny, or some dictator's invisible prop. If they come after us & want to start a fight, we can give it then. But we are there picking the fight with them. We are the provokers, here, & we need to get out.

It seems to me that most of the left, almost all libertarians, & many conservatives are tired of the 'american meddling', masquerading as 'foreign affairs'. If there is one thing that we could pressure our reps to do, it should be to cut back our military presence around the world, & save us lots of money. How easy is this? We don't really have any business there.. we're not exploiting them & stealing their oil, nor helping them. We prop up oppressive dictators, & breed hatred & resentment. We kill innocent people, & bomb villages. This policy does not reflect the feelings of americans, why should we allow our govt to misrepresent us like this? Treat other nations with respect & tolerance, negotiate fair trade agreements, & leave them alone. This is not manifest destiny. We are in the 21st century, & need to back off.

We can model freedom. We can encourage it. But i don't think it is OUR national duty to free the entire world. When the politicians use that concept to justify intervention, we often find out there was a hidden agenda. The american taxpayers should not be financially responsible to provide freedom or justice for the world. Let the world & immediate neighbors take care of that. If freedom loving americans want to become freedom fighters, or give money to free some oppressed people, they should be able to do that. But the govt as a whole should not be involved in making arbitrary decisions about whether another country is as free as we think it should be, or if the rulers there suit us, or any artificial measurement. We should treat other nations with dignity & respect, & if they treat us the same, we're fine. If another country's citizens revolt against their govt, we can cheer for democracy, but picking winners & losers can be a tricky process. Politicians are too easily fooled & end up supporting just another oppressor.

Stamp out Poverty!

The basic goal of the Federal welfare state in the us, from the 60's, was to 'stamp out poverty'. This is a good rallying cry, but it's intent followed along these lines:

1. Give people a hand up, to improve their lives.
2. Provide a safety net when adversity strikes.
3. Reduce poverty & move the poor into useful, productive lives.

These goals were based upon premises:
1. No one should go hungry.
2. Everyone deserves a home.
3. Everyone deserves healthcare.

So programs from the federal govt began to grow, targeting these issues. There were commodities programs, but too much got wasted, so it evolved into food stamps. There were public housing projects & health clinics. In essence, it was an attempt to provide the basic necessities of life to people for free. It was not intended to be a lifestyle, but a short term 'safety net', until the party could get back on their feet.

Now let's look at the results.
1. Has poverty declined? No, it is more than ever.
2. Are the poor moving into productive work? No, they stagnate in pockets of poverty & dependency.

And there are other negative consequences of this 'war'.
1. The poor are herded into ethnic ghettos.. almost like concentration camps.. gulags trapping generations in a life of poverty & hopelessness.
2. The 'welfare communities' become a breeding ground for crime. Young people are not motivated to provide for themselves or their families, but are pushed to criminal behavior.
3. The welfare communities promote irresponsible breeding, adding to the problem of over population.
4. They contribute to the breakdown of the family, & erode the family values of the culture, encouraging births out of wedlock, & fatherless families.
5. They remove the natural motivation & drive that people have to better their lives & their children's.
6. They take away people's self respect & sense of dignity.
7. They promote a sense of entitlement, with more & more people expecting all the necessities of life to be provided for free.
8. They promote racism by handicapping by race, & grouping the poor into ethnic communities.
9. They promote dependency, not self sufficiency.
10. They promote poor quality schools, where the 3 r's become, 'Robbery, Rape, & Racism'.
11. Hopelessness & despair breed chemical addiction. Society is burdened even more dealing with the consequences of drug & alcohol excesses.

This list could go on. It is not a worthy goal of a free people. The welfare state programs have not accomplished their intended goals. We have had over 50 years of attempting this experiment, & have only proved that welfare at the federal level does not work. It only institutionalizes poverty, making it into a govt business, wasting the taxpayer's money, & trapping people in a life of dependency.

It was motivated by pie in the sky utopian fantasies, but the real world does not work this way. It is time for us to phase out this colossal failure in public policy, & turn the concept of safety nets to local communities or states.

The results have been more like liberal zoos, herding people into regions where they can be fed, caged, & viewed by the zookeepers. People are not treated with dignity, but as progressive pets.. things that the proponents can point to to assuage their guilt, or money making projects for faux civil rights causes. But this practice is demeaning to human beings, & denies them their pursuit of self respect. It is a racist, oppressive practice, & should be stopped. It is contrary to the american ideal.

Now the left tries to twist things around.. if anyone questions the validity of welfare programs, howls of 'racism!' or 'heartless!' go up. But in actual reality, the heartlessness & racism is promoted by the backers of these programs, not the opponents. Promoting dependency like this in not good for a culture, or society as a whole. It is not sustainable. These 'pet' projects of misguided bleeding heart liberals has had the reverse effect.

How much longer will freedom loving people allow this kind of oppression in our nation? Why do we tolerate this racist, demeaning treatment of our fellow citizens? It is time for true liberty loving americans to stand against these discriminatory & oppressive policies that trap our people in a cycle of dependency. It is time for true liberals, who love liberty & individual freedom, to wake up to the lies of welfare state propaganda, & the deception of false compassion. Let's really be compassionate, & give people what they really need. Let's turn the safety net over to local communities & states. Phase out this fiasco of social engineering, & promote freedom & self respect. Let us focus on the goal, rather than perpetuating govt bureaucracy.

Is 'humanitarian aid' inhuman?

Why do progressives, or the left, or whatever ideological label you want to use, support 'humanitarian' aid, when the very thing they do is negative for humanity? Is this not ironic? The view of the religious right is at least consistent.. they think God has put them in charge of 'helping the poor', and they don't believe overpopulation is a problem, at least from what i've heard from them. So while creating a breeding ground has some moral questions for them, it fits into their world view.

But progressives think overpopulation is a big problem. So why would they support sending food to overpopulated countries to encourage overpopulation?

Personally, i don't think govt should be involved in these kinds of moral decisions. They should stick to the basics, & let the religious or humanitarian groups agonize over the plight of the poor. It borders on 'establishing' religious views, not legal or ethical responsibilities of govt.


I understand those with a religious motivation. They feel God has given them the charge to care for the poor. Any human suffering causes them to ache in empathy for their plight.  But the secular humanism of the progressives does not have that religious motivation.  Neither does a govt.. especially the US govt, which is supposed to be separate, religiously.

And where do you draw the line? There are suffering poor all over the world. Some places there are political injustices.. syria, for example.  Innocent people do not receive justice. Many 3rd world countries do not have any kind of economic justice.. some are rich, exploiting the poor for their own enrichment, but most of the workers are dirt poor, eking out an existence that makes American poor look wealthy by comparison. Why do the progressive govts or groups not labor as hard to bring justice to them? We dump some food in ethiopia or somalia, but let the oppressed poor in china or india suffer. We 'liberate' iraq, yet let the syrian govt oppress the people.

And all during this, the progressives will bring alarming statistics about the horrors of overpopulation to the health & welfare of the planet, yet do the very things that make it worse. How is this reconciled in a logical way? How do american progressives support 'humanitarian' aid, when it is mostly a religious motivation?

Logical motivations are cold hearted. The 'heart' has no place in a discussion about motivations, unless that is the motive. Do  progressives, even though they know it is bad for the planet & humanity, support aid to the world's poor because of religiously motivated compassion?

I think it is inconsistent.. and ironic. If 'job 1' is saving the earth & cutting back on world populations, then artificially feeding people in large breeding grounds, with no strings attached, is illogical. Some have suggested exchanging food for sterilization, but this hasn't gotten much support from the progressives as a whole. Why not?

My part in this discussion is a philosophical one.  There are many poor, disadvantaged, hungry, homeless, & people without ipads all over the world.  Many humanitarian efforts are made, & have been made over the years to alleviate their suffering.  Humanitarian groups have formed to help those in need.  Govts have instituted social programs to combat the problems.  Cell phones, sodas & chips are provided for free.  But they have not been effective, & have only worsened the problems & compounded them.  Not only have the poor increased, but their dependency has increased, & our efforts to 'help' have only provided a breeding ground.  Giving away free food, housing, medical care, etc, only taxes the resources of those who are providing for themselves.  It does not promote independence.  It promotes a culture of crime, irresponsibility, & unchecked procreation.  The productive citizens of the world cannot afford to keep a 'zoo' for the amusement of social engineers & religious ideologues.

Here are a few of my basic objections for the motive for govt humanitarian aid:

1. Govt sponsored 'humanitarian' aid does not help humanity, but only makes things worse.

2. It seems to be a religious motivation, to 'help the poor', which violates the no establishment clause in the american constitution.  Other nations may have religious values embedded in their govt, but the us does not.

3.  Medical care, national protection, food, water, & housing are all necessary for people's survival.  None of these things are free or a 'natural right', but must be worked for.  Someone must pay for them.  There are not enough prosperous people in the world to support all the poor, or provide a breeding ground for them.

I have not addressed solutions.  I am only defining & identifying the problem, & the failure of the status quo & the programs of the last 50 yrs or so.  But to continue with the same failed policies is madness & folly.  We need real solutions.  The working people of the world cannot support a larger & larger dependent class.  The working people of america cannot afford to support a massive dependent class, or the rest of the world's poor.  We need to grow the productive working class of the nation, not shrink it by  moving them to dependency.  Our policies should be motivated by that concept.. that is the underlying philosophical basis for determining govt's role.

For some things in life, there are no solutions.  We cannot end death.  We cannot stop gravity.  We cannot end war or human violence.  We cannot stop earthquakes, hurricanes, or tsunamis.  We cannot end poverty or provide free food, housing, medical care, or any other survival necessity to the world.  Individually, as a nation, & a world, we can only deal with things the best we can, & try to provide the best environment for people to work & provide for their families.  Redistribution does not solve any of these problems.  It also just compounds them.  It is clear that the cost to support a larger & larger dependent class is unsustainable.  Our budget is bursting with entitlements & welfare redistribution programs.  It is bankrupting us.

Some believe very strongly that americans have a divine responsibility to police the world, & seek international justice.  This, too, is a noble cause, motivated again, by a religious opinion.  But the underlying basis for the opinion is the same.  It is motivated by compassion for the poor & disadvantaged.  It is a religious view, not a logical one.  The basic 'rule' in the universe is that the fit survive.  You may try to work against that rule, but that is a religious goal, not a natural one.

Now if you want to argue the need for man to manage the earth, then other considerations should be made.  Overpopulation is a major problem.  Providing a breeding ground for unchecked population growth directly violates the goal of reducing or checking the world's population.  Unchecked human breeding diminishes the habitat of other species, & taxes the environment.  So the religious concept of humanitarian aid is diametrically opposed to more earth based concerns.  A balance should be sought, to satisfy both concerns.  But again, the current trend is unsustainable.